We're the ones the Church forgot
We miss the standards of the pius
We avoid the depths of the heathen
We wander around with no place to go and no place to call home
Because we're the ones the Church forgot
We grew up in your presence, singing hymns to God
The God you said loved us with a love you never showed us
We've prayed your prayer
and then you left us there
because that's what you want
A prayer to make you feel good, a prayer to 'save our souls'
But we figured out that a prayer means nothing if you don't know
If you don't know the God you prayed to, and you can't seem to find him
We search and search and search but your answer is only 'come to us'
We've come, time and time again, with our questions and our doubts
wanting your answers, but you are your answer
Your presence is your solution
We're the ones the Church forgot
We asked the questions you don't like
We found our answers.
They're not in bars or on street corners
They're within ourselves
They're 'love thy neighbor' and 'drink they wine'
But our neighbor is gay and our wine is strong, and you tell us those things a wrong
Our faith tells us to look around for our answers, the world we lived in showed us God
Redemption and Salvation came through the fires of trial
And our world, our God, showed us faithfullness
NOT YOU
So we look to our world to see his wonders
Our earth is old, and our Bibles are new
Our God knows where we are
Even when we can't see him
But you still leave us to die
You may know our names
You may know our faces
You may know our pain
but you don't care
We cried out to you, and we reached out for you
But we are not like you, and we are not like them
So you didn't see us, you passed us by
You remember us when the plate is passed
but forget us when our times are rough.
because we're the ones the Church forgot
When we come across your mind, you think of how wrong we are
But then you go back to your pew.
Because we're the ones the Church forgot
The hands of Christ pushed us aside
and His legs walked around us.
Because we're the ones the Church forgot
But we did not forget the Church
the "Body of Christ", the worst enemy of God
We will come to you, we will share our answers
We will share our wisdom
We will bare your burdens and we will know His name
Because we're the ones the Church forgot
Tuesday, December 21, 2010
Sunday, September 20, 2009
In response to Ashley's post....
In response to Ashley's post on the article at http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html
I believe he is right(mostly). There is a massive change in the Protestant world coming. However, he has his terms mixed up (as many people do). He has mixed up “Evangelical” and “Seeker-friendly”. It’s very easy to see why, the seeker-friendly movement has its roots in Evangelicalism. But the two ideas are totally different. One became so focused on rules, and regulations along with the Gospel (I will tell you about the sermon I heard on how “if you’re not a voting Republican, you’re not a good Christian”). While the other focused on making God into a super-cuddly cosmic ball of love…kind of like a puppy.
Evangelical churches have been in limbo since the mid 90’s. Some groups, like the SBC have seen constant year to year growth (but even they have many seeker friendly groups within themselves). Others (like the notorious Independent Fundamentalist 1611 KJV ONLY! Baptist) have been in decline. Evangelicalism however, has pretty much had its death. It evolved/was replaced by The Seeker-friendly movement that sprang up in the late 80’s-90’s.
This, is the group that I think is in the most danger of fading out. The Evangelicals have gone through their weeding out phase, those that remain are the ones that will be there for life, their children will most likely remain and their churches will face little change in the coming years.
The Seeker-friendly groups however, are the ones in danger. Many groups in this movement have gone to the far opposite side of the spectrum. And instead of teaching of Hell and salvation, they teach the gospel of the “all loving, super-duper nice God”. This has lead to weak faith. Instead of being told that people are sinners in need of a Savior, they are told that God loves them (which He does) and only wants to give them the best in life (which He does not). When hard times come, these people loose their faith (they are the seeds planted in stony ground that spring up, then die because their roots are not deep).
This focusing on a social gospel which seeks to make people feel good . Is leading people down and anti-Biblical relativistic road.
Statements like : ” You may make some mistakes-but that doesn`t make you a sinner. You`ve got the very nature of God on the inside of you.” And When you focus on being a blessing, God makes sure that you are always blessed in abundance.” (both by Joel Olsteen). Ideas like these are counter-Biblical. Paul says “the things that I want to do, I don’t do, and those things which I do I don’t want to do”. And the scriptures clearly teach that “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. This teaching does not prepare the Christian for hard times. And a church based on teachings like this, will not stand for long. The seeker-friendly movement is its own death. Many post-evangelical church goers have a faith based not on Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. But on feel-good services and the idea of a god who is more concerned about loving people than with his righteousness and glory. That being said, the Protestant world is in for rough times in the future. Like the article said, many Protestants will convert to the traditional branches of Christianity. But I can also see a rise in neo-Evangelicalism, taking both the Gospel and a social call to action to the people of the world.
I believe he is right(mostly). There is a massive change in the Protestant world coming. However, he has his terms mixed up (as many people do). He has mixed up “Evangelical” and “Seeker-friendly”. It’s very easy to see why, the seeker-friendly movement has its roots in Evangelicalism. But the two ideas are totally different. One became so focused on rules, and regulations along with the Gospel (I will tell you about the sermon I heard on how “if you’re not a voting Republican, you’re not a good Christian”). While the other focused on making God into a super-cuddly cosmic ball of love…kind of like a puppy.
Evangelical churches have been in limbo since the mid 90’s. Some groups, like the SBC have seen constant year to year growth (but even they have many seeker friendly groups within themselves). Others (like the notorious Independent Fundamentalist 1611 KJV ONLY! Baptist) have been in decline. Evangelicalism however, has pretty much had its death. It evolved/was replaced by The Seeker-friendly movement that sprang up in the late 80’s-90’s.
This, is the group that I think is in the most danger of fading out. The Evangelicals have gone through their weeding out phase, those that remain are the ones that will be there for life, their children will most likely remain and their churches will face little change in the coming years.
The Seeker-friendly groups however, are the ones in danger. Many groups in this movement have gone to the far opposite side of the spectrum. And instead of teaching of Hell and salvation, they teach the gospel of the “all loving, super-duper nice God”. This has lead to weak faith. Instead of being told that people are sinners in need of a Savior, they are told that God loves them (which He does) and only wants to give them the best in life (which He does not). When hard times come, these people loose their faith (they are the seeds planted in stony ground that spring up, then die because their roots are not deep).
This focusing on a social gospel which seeks to make people feel good . Is leading people down and anti-Biblical relativistic road.
Statements like : ” You may make some mistakes-but that doesn`t make you a sinner. You`ve got the very nature of God on the inside of you.” And When you focus on being a blessing, God makes sure that you are always blessed in abundance.” (both by Joel Olsteen). Ideas like these are counter-Biblical. Paul says “the things that I want to do, I don’t do, and those things which I do I don’t want to do”. And the scriptures clearly teach that “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. This teaching does not prepare the Christian for hard times. And a church based on teachings like this, will not stand for long. The seeker-friendly movement is its own death. Many post-evangelical church goers have a faith based not on Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. But on feel-good services and the idea of a god who is more concerned about loving people than with his righteousness and glory. That being said, the Protestant world is in for rough times in the future. Like the article said, many Protestants will convert to the traditional branches of Christianity. But I can also see a rise in neo-Evangelicalism, taking both the Gospel and a social call to action to the people of the world.
Monday, February 23, 2009
Something to think about
Something I was sent, maybe we should think about the message here....
Financial turmoil can yield revival, Johnny Hunt says
By: Erin Roach
Original article can be found here, http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?Id=29898.
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--In the midst of the nation's financial hardships, Southern Baptists have a prime opportunity to show unbelievers that what they've embraced is not fair-weather Christianity, Johnny Hunt, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, said Feb. 16."I thank God that what the Lord Jesus Christ has done in our lives will go the distance. The truth is ... it's not what's going to come against us that's going to make us or break us, it's what God has placed in us and what we choose to do with it," Hunt told the SBC Executive Committee in Nashville, Tenn.During a recent speaking engagement at the Georgia House of Representatives, Hunt, pastor of the Atlanta-area First Baptist Church in Woodstock, said government officials lined up to ask him whether the Bible says anything pertaining to the financial difficulties Americans are facing.Hunt said the Bible is the oldest collection of wisdom, and he called it the church's stimulus package."If we're looking for something from out there to help us, really what we're saying is that which we've received in here is not sufficient," he said, holding up a Bible.The first chapter of the Book of Job holds the answer for how believers are able to endure hard times, Hunt said. Satan asked whether Job feared God simply because God had put a hedge of protection around him, and Hunt said the same question could be asked of Southern Baptists and of Americans."In other words, it's easy to serve Him as long as we're in our fine Southern Baptist churches, our fine offices, wherever you may be serving, and we're being taken care of," he said.But the true test comes when the sun is no longer shining down and the road is marked with suffering. That's when the world is watching to see how Christians will respond, Hunt said. As Job asked, Southern Baptists need to ask themselves, "Will we accept good from God and not accept adversity?"Hunt then transitioned into eight prayer requests derived from Psalm 119:33-40, in which the psalmist asked God to help him cope in life."He's crying out to God, and I see it relating so well to where we are as a denomination," Hunt said.First, there is a prayer for education, he said, noting that the psalmist is teachable and has a desire to learn. "Also note in this petition a tone of humility and dependence," he said. "He sees God as a path to be followed, and he's saying, 'God, I so desire for You to educate me.'"In verse 34, there is a prayer for illumination, Hunt said. Three words predominantly used in Psalms and Proverbs, he said, are knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Knowledge is education, but understanding is knowledge that has worked itself out in the realities of life. Wisdom, he said, can only be given by God, and it can be given to people with no formal education.The psalmist prays for direction in verse 35 as he asks, "Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, for I delight in it." "That's the psalmist's paradox," Hunt said. "Why ask the Lord to make you do what you like doing? Because he knew there was a war between the flesh and the spirit. He understood a little something about Romans 7. Is that not true in all of us?"Next comes a prayer for inclination, in which the psalmist is asking God to establish a pattern of consistency in his life and to help him avoid covetousness."If there's any place that America has bowed and formed an altar and stayed there, it's in the area of the idolatry of covetousness," Hunt said.The psalmist also sets forth a prayer for attention, Hunt said, when he asks God to turn his eyes from looking at worthless things."Do I need to say any more? My attention needs to be focused on the Word of God," Hunt said. "... Sinful things have a great attraction for us, and the psalmist said, 'Turn my eyes away from looking at worthless things.'"In verse 38, there is a prayer for realization."When Isaiah saw God for who He was, the very next thing that happened was he saw himself for who he was," Hunt said. "... We'll never see ourselves the way God sees us until we see God for who God is. And then when we do, we won't think near as much of ourselves."The psalmist also prays for protection when he asks God to turn away his reproach. "To bear reproach is to bear shame. The psalmist is asking God to protect his testimony. He so desired to never disgrace the Lord and bring His name dishonor," Hunt said.Finally, the psalmist prays for aspiration. In other words, he longed to live the kind of life laid out in God's Word, and he longed for the life-giving transformation that only God could produce in his life."The man that's making the request is so dependent that unless God does what he asks, it won't get done," Hunt said. "... He's sitting idle without the potential of getting where God is in order to be revived, and it's like saying, 'Unless You come to me where I am and breathe Your transforming life in me, I will be right here when You come back.' "I feel like sometimes that's where we are as Southern Baptists. We need the life-transforming breath of Almighty God to come to where we are in our decline and breathe into us and help us to stand again and be a mighty army, a force for the glory of God."As the economic crisis has unfolded, Hunt said he has told people repeatedly that he believes God is still in control."God's still on His throne. He's still ruling. He's still reigning. There's no vacancy. So if that's the case, God's still in charge, He's allowing us to go through what we're going through," Hunt said."And in my estimation, if He were going to hit America anywhere to get our attention, the best place to begin is in the pocketbook. And if by taking us from recession to depression He could get us on our knees again and help us to realize a need for Him and bring revival, if He could do that and will do it, I'll be the first if He'd like to bankrupt me first," Hunt said."You say, 'Talk is cheap.' We're not just talking. This is something we've prayed through over and over again and just begin to say, 'God, whatever it takes in my lifetime.' Some of you have prayed far longer than I have. Some of you have been preaching longer than I've been a Christian," he said."But to really mean it, whatever it takes for God once again to wake this nation up to the fact of who He is in the name of Jesus, I pray He'll do it. That's my prayer, and may God do it."--30--Erin Roach is a staff writer for Baptist Press.
Copyright (c) 2009 Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist Press. Visit www.bpnews.net. BP News -- witness the difference! Covering the critical issues that shape your life, work and ministry. BP News is a ministry of Baptist Press, the daily news service of Southern Baptists.
Financial turmoil can yield revival, Johnny Hunt says
By: Erin Roach
Original article can be found here, http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?Id=29898.
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--In the midst of the nation's financial hardships, Southern Baptists have a prime opportunity to show unbelievers that what they've embraced is not fair-weather Christianity, Johnny Hunt, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, said Feb. 16."I thank God that what the Lord Jesus Christ has done in our lives will go the distance. The truth is ... it's not what's going to come against us that's going to make us or break us, it's what God has placed in us and what we choose to do with it," Hunt told the SBC Executive Committee in Nashville, Tenn.During a recent speaking engagement at the Georgia House of Representatives, Hunt, pastor of the Atlanta-area First Baptist Church in Woodstock, said government officials lined up to ask him whether the Bible says anything pertaining to the financial difficulties Americans are facing.Hunt said the Bible is the oldest collection of wisdom, and he called it the church's stimulus package."If we're looking for something from out there to help us, really what we're saying is that which we've received in here is not sufficient," he said, holding up a Bible.The first chapter of the Book of Job holds the answer for how believers are able to endure hard times, Hunt said. Satan asked whether Job feared God simply because God had put a hedge of protection around him, and Hunt said the same question could be asked of Southern Baptists and of Americans."In other words, it's easy to serve Him as long as we're in our fine Southern Baptist churches, our fine offices, wherever you may be serving, and we're being taken care of," he said.But the true test comes when the sun is no longer shining down and the road is marked with suffering. That's when the world is watching to see how Christians will respond, Hunt said. As Job asked, Southern Baptists need to ask themselves, "Will we accept good from God and not accept adversity?"Hunt then transitioned into eight prayer requests derived from Psalm 119:33-40, in which the psalmist asked God to help him cope in life."He's crying out to God, and I see it relating so well to where we are as a denomination," Hunt said.First, there is a prayer for education, he said, noting that the psalmist is teachable and has a desire to learn. "Also note in this petition a tone of humility and dependence," he said. "He sees God as a path to be followed, and he's saying, 'God, I so desire for You to educate me.'"In verse 34, there is a prayer for illumination, Hunt said. Three words predominantly used in Psalms and Proverbs, he said, are knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Knowledge is education, but understanding is knowledge that has worked itself out in the realities of life. Wisdom, he said, can only be given by God, and it can be given to people with no formal education.The psalmist prays for direction in verse 35 as he asks, "Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, for I delight in it." "That's the psalmist's paradox," Hunt said. "Why ask the Lord to make you do what you like doing? Because he knew there was a war between the flesh and the spirit. He understood a little something about Romans 7. Is that not true in all of us?"Next comes a prayer for inclination, in which the psalmist is asking God to establish a pattern of consistency in his life and to help him avoid covetousness."If there's any place that America has bowed and formed an altar and stayed there, it's in the area of the idolatry of covetousness," Hunt said.The psalmist also sets forth a prayer for attention, Hunt said, when he asks God to turn his eyes from looking at worthless things."Do I need to say any more? My attention needs to be focused on the Word of God," Hunt said. "... Sinful things have a great attraction for us, and the psalmist said, 'Turn my eyes away from looking at worthless things.'"In verse 38, there is a prayer for realization."When Isaiah saw God for who He was, the very next thing that happened was he saw himself for who he was," Hunt said. "... We'll never see ourselves the way God sees us until we see God for who God is. And then when we do, we won't think near as much of ourselves."The psalmist also prays for protection when he asks God to turn away his reproach. "To bear reproach is to bear shame. The psalmist is asking God to protect his testimony. He so desired to never disgrace the Lord and bring His name dishonor," Hunt said.Finally, the psalmist prays for aspiration. In other words, he longed to live the kind of life laid out in God's Word, and he longed for the life-giving transformation that only God could produce in his life."The man that's making the request is so dependent that unless God does what he asks, it won't get done," Hunt said. "... He's sitting idle without the potential of getting where God is in order to be revived, and it's like saying, 'Unless You come to me where I am and breathe Your transforming life in me, I will be right here when You come back.' "I feel like sometimes that's where we are as Southern Baptists. We need the life-transforming breath of Almighty God to come to where we are in our decline and breathe into us and help us to stand again and be a mighty army, a force for the glory of God."As the economic crisis has unfolded, Hunt said he has told people repeatedly that he believes God is still in control."God's still on His throne. He's still ruling. He's still reigning. There's no vacancy. So if that's the case, God's still in charge, He's allowing us to go through what we're going through," Hunt said."And in my estimation, if He were going to hit America anywhere to get our attention, the best place to begin is in the pocketbook. And if by taking us from recession to depression He could get us on our knees again and help us to realize a need for Him and bring revival, if He could do that and will do it, I'll be the first if He'd like to bankrupt me first," Hunt said."You say, 'Talk is cheap.' We're not just talking. This is something we've prayed through over and over again and just begin to say, 'God, whatever it takes in my lifetime.' Some of you have prayed far longer than I have. Some of you have been preaching longer than I've been a Christian," he said."But to really mean it, whatever it takes for God once again to wake this nation up to the fact of who He is in the name of Jesus, I pray He'll do it. That's my prayer, and may God do it."--30--Erin Roach is a staff writer for Baptist Press.
Copyright (c) 2009 Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist Press. Visit www.bpnews.net. BP News -- witness the difference! Covering the critical issues that shape your life, work and ministry. BP News is a ministry of Baptist Press, the daily news service of Southern Baptists.
Wednesday, November 5, 2008
Washington
This post, is supposed to be something to get your minds off of the events in Washington. There is no deep topic to discuss, rather some verses that we should all think over, pray through, and perhaps save for later. Although many of us are upset, and think that our nation is on a fast track to Mecca now, or that we're going to become a communistic/socialist regime. I give you these words to calm your minds, and ease your anxiety.
First, a prayer-
Psalm 143:7-8 (NIV) Answer me quickly, O Lord; my spirit fails. Do not hide your face from me or I will be like those who go down to the pit. [8] Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul.
God Provides for us, and He is just
Psalm 146:6-9 (NIV) the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them-- the Lord, who remains faithful forever. [7] He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free, [8] the Lord gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous. [9] The Lord watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.
Psalm 147:3 (NIV) He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.
Isaiah 61:7-9 (NIV) Instead of their shame my people will receive a double portion, and instead of disgrace they will rejoice in their inheritance; and so they will inherit a double portion in their land, and everlasting joy will be theirs. [8] "For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them. [9] Their descendants will be known among the nations and their offspring among the peoples. All who see them will acknowledge that they are a people the Lord has blessed."
Do not worry about what tommorrow will bring:
Psalm 37:1-4 (NIV)
Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of those who do wrong; [2] for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away. [3] Trust in the Lord and do good; dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture. [4] Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.
John 14:1 (NIV) "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
God controls our Government
Proverbs 21:1 (NKJV)
The King's heart is in the Lords hands, Like the rivers of water, He turns it whichever way He wishes
These verses are not something that we need to, or should debate upon. Rather, for those of you who are happy with the President-elect's victory, ponder this verses. And for those of you who have anxiety over this. Ponder these verses. Our God is in control. Not Allah, or any other god, Our God, Jehovah God the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. The next four years will be a change for many of the people reading this blog. But the next four years are ordained by the Heavenly Father from whom the "peace that passes all understanding" flows.
First, a prayer-
Psalm 143:7-8 (NIV) Answer me quickly, O Lord; my spirit fails. Do not hide your face from me or I will be like those who go down to the pit. [8] Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul.
God Provides for us, and He is just
Psalm 146:6-9 (NIV) the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them-- the Lord, who remains faithful forever. [7] He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free, [8] the Lord gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous. [9] The Lord watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.
Psalm 147:3 (NIV) He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.
Isaiah 61:7-9 (NIV) Instead of their shame my people will receive a double portion, and instead of disgrace they will rejoice in their inheritance; and so they will inherit a double portion in their land, and everlasting joy will be theirs. [8] "For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them. [9] Their descendants will be known among the nations and their offspring among the peoples. All who see them will acknowledge that they are a people the Lord has blessed."
Do not worry about what tommorrow will bring:
Psalm 37:1-4 (NIV)
Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of those who do wrong; [2] for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away. [3] Trust in the Lord and do good; dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture. [4] Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.
John 14:1 (NIV) "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
God controls our Government
Proverbs 21:1 (NKJV)
The King's heart is in the Lords hands, Like the rivers of water, He turns it whichever way He wishes
These verses are not something that we need to, or should debate upon. Rather, for those of you who are happy with the President-elect's victory, ponder this verses. And for those of you who have anxiety over this. Ponder these verses. Our God is in control. Not Allah, or any other god, Our God, Jehovah God the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. The next four years will be a change for many of the people reading this blog. But the next four years are ordained by the Heavenly Father from whom the "peace that passes all understanding" flows.
Saturday, November 1, 2008
Womenpriest?
So, here is my next blog post. I read this article today, and thought it would be much better than what I am working on. The topic of Veneration of the Saints is coming, but I'm still working on it. So here is the article (copied) and the link is at the bottom of the post.
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CHICAGO, Oct. 31 (UPI) -- A 60-year-old woman in Chicago says she is set to face excommunication by the Vatican as part of her pursuit to become a priest.
Barbara Zeman said her planned participation in an ordination ceremony this weekend at a Protestant church in Chicago will directly violate a Roman Catholic Church ban on women entering the priesthood, The Chicago Tribune said Friday.
"I am disobeying an unjust law. I am following my conscience, and I am obeying God's call," Zeman said of her plan to begin the path to priesthood Saturday. "I'm not doing this for myself. I'm doing this for the generations of women to come, because I don't want those women to have the fight that I've had."
The Roman Catholic Womenpriests event at St. Paul's United Church of Christ will feature the group declaring three women deacons as part of their goal to become Catholic priests.
The Tribune said the Vatican has already declared that any individuals taking part in such events will be excommunicated from the church.
"I'm not doing this unaware of the consequences. I'm aware," Zeman said of that threat. "I just think that the goal and the change are far greater than the consequences."
© 2008 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/31/Woman_taking_on_Vatican_for_priesthood/UPI-30331225475279/
So here you go, perhaps some prompts to get this conversation started?
If the Roman See declares that women cannot enter the Priesthood, should these people still call themselves Catholics?
Should the Vatican change this policy?
Why/why not should women be allowed into the Priesthood?
How should Protestants react to this?
Order reprints | Feedback
CHICAGO, Oct. 31 (UPI) -- A 60-year-old woman in Chicago says she is set to face excommunication by the Vatican as part of her pursuit to become a priest.
Barbara Zeman said her planned participation in an ordination ceremony this weekend at a Protestant church in Chicago will directly violate a Roman Catholic Church ban on women entering the priesthood, The Chicago Tribune said Friday.
"I am disobeying an unjust law. I am following my conscience, and I am obeying God's call," Zeman said of her plan to begin the path to priesthood Saturday. "I'm not doing this for myself. I'm doing this for the generations of women to come, because I don't want those women to have the fight that I've had."
The Roman Catholic Womenpriests event at St. Paul's United Church of Christ will feature the group declaring three women deacons as part of their goal to become Catholic priests.
The Tribune said the Vatican has already declared that any individuals taking part in such events will be excommunicated from the church.
"I'm not doing this unaware of the consequences. I'm aware," Zeman said of that threat. "I just think that the goal and the change are far greater than the consequences."
© 2008 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/31/Woman_taking_on_Vatican_for_priesthood/UPI-30331225475279/
So here you go, perhaps some prompts to get this conversation started?
If the Roman See declares that women cannot enter the Priesthood, should these people still call themselves Catholics?
Should the Vatican change this policy?
Why/why not should women be allowed into the Priesthood?
How should Protestants react to this?
Friday, October 24, 2008
Luther's 95 Thesis
The next several topics that I want to discuss have to do with Church Leadership, Veneration of the Saints, and deviations of Protestantism. However, before we look at these, it is important to remember that most "mainstream" Protestant churches evolved from deviations of Luther's teachings. Most claim his "95 Thesis" to be the starting documents of the reformation. So, in order to look at the topics above in a proper light as Christians, let us look at Luther's thesis so we can compare our deviations to Luther's ideas. ( I know it's long, but please take the time to read it)
1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
Tuesday, October 21, 2008
Baptism and Salvation
My first series post will focus on several issues of faith. These are things that I have been thinking about for some time now, and I just can’t seem to except any of the answers that have been given to me. The topics that I want to discuss are as follows: Baptism, veneration and a proper respect of the Virgin and Christ’ Saints, Speaking in Tongues: what it is and what it isn’t, the Papacy and Apostolic succession, Who can get saved: Calvinism vs. Free will, and finally I would like to look at history of the Protestant Church: where did the Baptist come from?
My thoughts on these topics are wide ranging, some of them are very Catholic or Orthodox (note, I will always try distinguish between the two) and others are straight up from the SBC Handbook. As always, please feel free to disagree with me, I am asking you to help me hammer out these issues all responses and opinions are welcome but realize that they are all up for debate, in other words, don’t take it personal if I don’t convert to your view. I am trying to keep my thoughts on these issues as Biblically sound as possible, but I am also taking into consideration Sacred Tradition of the Church and logical thought.
Onto my first topic…Baptism. Baptism has always been a tricky issue for me, on the one hand, I am inclined to believe what I have always been taught, that Baptism is a sign of the believer. That while it is not necessary for salvation, it is commanded by Christ and is a sign of the believer’s faith. I am not talking about a “baptism of the Spirit” but I am talking about the physical dunking/sprinkling/triple emersion/ pouring dirt on somebody act of Baptism as seen in the Church today and throughout history.
I started out looking at the topic of Baptism by doing a search at the following web site (http://www.biblebb.com/files/tniv/BAPTISM1.TXT ) it brought up all the verses that mention Baptism in the Bible. I went through them, and categorized them into “Required for Salvation” “Not required for salvation” and “not relevant to the issue”. My results are as follows:
-There are 27* verses that would appear to make Baptism a requirement for salvation.
(John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:13, Mat 3:6, Mat 3:11, Mat 28:19, Mat 21:25, Mar 1:4-5, MAR 16:16, Luke 7:29-30, John 3:22, ACTS 2:41, ACTS 8:12, Acts 6:15, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:3-5, Acts 22:16, ROM 6:3-4, 1Cor 15:29, GAL 3:27, EPH 4:5, COL 2:12)
-There are 10* verses that make it sound as though it is not required for salvation.
(Acts 10:47, Mark 16:16, JOH 1:25-26 + 31, Acts 8:36, Acts 9:18, Acts 16:15+33, 1 Cor 1:17)
*Note that there are 2 or 3 references that can be interpreted each way, and were counted in both of them.
As for the verses that were listed in the “not relevant” category, I did not keep track of them they were mostly either talking about Spirit Baptism or “So and so dunked what’s his face” type verses.
Nearly 3 to 1 verses that is a pretty big difference. However, please note that these verses that say “yes” are saying either that it is necessary or that it should not be separated from the “moment” of salvation. One cannot argue that the scriptures show that Baptism is for the remission of sins, that it “wipes away” your sins, but is it necessary for salvation? We see in Acts that there were believers who had received the Holy Spirit (a sing of salvation) but had not been Baptized. Is the remission of sins salvation?
Now, onto the next part of Baptism, some people say that Baptism is “just a good idea” that you do not have to do it. These people are wrong, Baptism in ALL these verses is commanded. Nowhere in scripture is Baptism an option, there were no non-baptized believers in the Scriptures. The ones who were not Baptized when they received the Holy Spirit were Baptized as soon as they had the option to.
Which brings me to my final thought on this topic, Baptism as a commanded sign of ones salvation. Many of the verses that we see that would correlate Baptism and salvation could be used to justify this view. There was no separation between “salvation” and Baptism. We are commanded to “make disciples and baptize them”.
So, I cannot seem to come to a conclusion on this… on the one hand there is good evidence that it is necessary for salvation, but on the other hand there is evidence that it is commanded and therefore not optional…So I ask you, what do you think….
~Trevor
My thoughts on these topics are wide ranging, some of them are very Catholic or Orthodox (note, I will always try distinguish between the two) and others are straight up from the SBC Handbook. As always, please feel free to disagree with me, I am asking you to help me hammer out these issues all responses and opinions are welcome but realize that they are all up for debate, in other words, don’t take it personal if I don’t convert to your view. I am trying to keep my thoughts on these issues as Biblically sound as possible, but I am also taking into consideration Sacred Tradition of the Church and logical thought.
Onto my first topic…Baptism. Baptism has always been a tricky issue for me, on the one hand, I am inclined to believe what I have always been taught, that Baptism is a sign of the believer. That while it is not necessary for salvation, it is commanded by Christ and is a sign of the believer’s faith. I am not talking about a “baptism of the Spirit” but I am talking about the physical dunking/sprinkling/triple emersion/ pouring dirt on somebody act of Baptism as seen in the Church today and throughout history.
I started out looking at the topic of Baptism by doing a search at the following web site (http://www.biblebb.com/files/tniv/BAPTISM1.TXT ) it brought up all the verses that mention Baptism in the Bible. I went through them, and categorized them into “Required for Salvation” “Not required for salvation” and “not relevant to the issue”. My results are as follows:
-There are 27* verses that would appear to make Baptism a requirement for salvation.
(John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:13, Mat 3:6, Mat 3:11, Mat 28:19, Mat 21:25, Mar 1:4-5, MAR 16:16, Luke 7:29-30, John 3:22, ACTS 2:41, ACTS 8:12, Acts 6:15, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:3-5, Acts 22:16, ROM 6:3-4, 1Cor 15:29, GAL 3:27, EPH 4:5, COL 2:12)
-There are 10* verses that make it sound as though it is not required for salvation.
(Acts 10:47, Mark 16:16, JOH 1:25-26 + 31, Acts 8:36, Acts 9:18, Acts 16:15+33, 1 Cor 1:17)
*Note that there are 2 or 3 references that can be interpreted each way, and were counted in both of them.
As for the verses that were listed in the “not relevant” category, I did not keep track of them they were mostly either talking about Spirit Baptism or “So and so dunked what’s his face” type verses.
Nearly 3 to 1 verses that is a pretty big difference. However, please note that these verses that say “yes” are saying either that it is necessary or that it should not be separated from the “moment” of salvation. One cannot argue that the scriptures show that Baptism is for the remission of sins, that it “wipes away” your sins, but is it necessary for salvation? We see in Acts that there were believers who had received the Holy Spirit (a sing of salvation) but had not been Baptized. Is the remission of sins salvation?
Now, onto the next part of Baptism, some people say that Baptism is “just a good idea” that you do not have to do it. These people are wrong, Baptism in ALL these verses is commanded. Nowhere in scripture is Baptism an option, there were no non-baptized believers in the Scriptures. The ones who were not Baptized when they received the Holy Spirit were Baptized as soon as they had the option to.
Which brings me to my final thought on this topic, Baptism as a commanded sign of ones salvation. Many of the verses that we see that would correlate Baptism and salvation could be used to justify this view. There was no separation between “salvation” and Baptism. We are commanded to “make disciples and baptize them”.
So, I cannot seem to come to a conclusion on this… on the one hand there is good evidence that it is necessary for salvation, but on the other hand there is evidence that it is commanded and therefore not optional…So I ask you, what do you think….
~Trevor
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